[00:10:44] Jim: Interesting. Christine, your thoughts? 

[00:10:46] Christine: Yeah. To that end, I feel that most people, they understand retirement savings and the fact that they'll have income needs in retirement, but it's so far off for them that it's hard to relate to. And as we talk about change, as there's been the shift from Defined Benefit pension plans to Defined Contribution plans, and as

demographics age, where that group, that cohort of people that had pensions, they start to age out as well, and younger generations begin to feel the impact of having a lack of guaranteed income really. I think the average plan participant is really seeing the value in these types of products.

And the conversation has gone from the why income, why guaranteed income, to more of the how and the detail in, not just product design, but how is income delivered, how does it reside within their broader retirement savings portfolio and other investment options within it. 

[00:11:45] Brian: I would just like to add, really, that's what I'm seeing from my seat is an observation of income products.

And one of the things that I really liked about AllianceBernstein in this relationship is they have a diversification of a product suite. So, this Lifetime Income platform can actually sit on multiple different asset allocation solutions. So there's variation there. That's the one thing I would say additionally is that I've seen in the industry that's changed is there's evaluation now of different income products, right?

So not only are we starting to talk about guaranteed income products, but now there's a valuation of different solutions and what fits best. And to Andrew's point, there's different things, different reasons, different needs that a plan sponsor or advisor's looking for. AB has that suite of solutions that can offer those types of guarantees or it could offer flexibility.

So, all those are things that I see are a win-win for people and organizations. 

[00:12:36] Andrew: That's— it's a really important 

point. It's being able to ultimately deliver what a retirement plan is ready for. That may be an overhaul of their default solution for participants. Highly customized to that plan with full personalization available for the Lifetime Income benefit.

It may be, hey, they're very happy with their target-date Fund provider, and now we're simply adding a tool that people can use to convert their assets from the Target-date Fund to the Guaranteed Income suite. Some plans have managed accounts. Some plans have a high degree of population where they like to take it into their own hands, and they choose their own allocation, if you will.

[00:13:16] Jim: You talk about delivering, you delivering on those promises.

[00:13:20] Andrew: Yes.

[00:13:21] Jim: Christine, we talked a little bit about the, importance of both our firms. Let's talk about the— dive deeper into the collaboration and the importance of that collaboration. In specifically, how is it meeting the evolving needs of the Institutional Retirement Income market?

[00:13:37] Christine: Yeah. Building upon Pacific Life's existing product suite in the market, this is just another great example of insurers and asset managers partnering together to deliver products that add value to the market, both from the plan sponsor's perspective and as, Andrew had mentioned, there are some plan sponsors that maybe take more of a parental approach, but then also plan types that have specific demographics.

Having different kinds of solutions in market is, I think, important to the success of offering guaranteed income solutions. 

[00:14:10] Jim: Excellent. I'd like to switch it up and talk a little bit about innovation for a moment, and innovation's important, and we hear that word a lot, but obviously this is something unique.

This is something important. And, Andrew, what differentiates this solution from others in the space? 

[00:14:28] Andrew: Sure. So we have really four main tenets of our product design and our philosophy that we, those are our die on the hill, right, things. One is we wanna deliver lifetime income with full asset control, full liquidity for participants.

People have to be able to access their money. Even if they don't in practice, it's important that they know that they can if they wanted to. That's a roadblock, otherwise, to adoption. Two, we would need a very competitive type of benefit with cost structure, right? The benefits have to be top of the line for what we're able to get at that price.

And the price has to be really competitive to protect plan sponsors who are making these fiduciary decisions. Third, we believe in growth potential. We want to have a lot of growth exposure in their portfolios because they've got this security blanket of insurance in a case where things don't go well.

And then lastly, as we've touched on a lot, the flexibility is really important. Flexibility for plan sponsors in how they implement. Flexibility for individuals in the plan. Some who need it, some who maybe don't need it as much, and the ultimate flexibility for participants to control how much exposure they have to it.

Those are the hallmarks of all of our solutions, and we believe really strongly in all of them. 

[00:15:45] Jim: I'd love to talk a little bit about advisors and the plan sponsors, their mindset. Let's get into their mindset for a moment. And Christine, maybe we could reflect a little bit about what advisors and plan sponsors are asking for in market,

and perhaps, most importantly, what participants are asking for right now. 

[00:16:03] Christine: Good question. The conversation with plan sponsors has really shifted from why to how. So, for many plan sponsors that they, again, they've seen this change in their plan demographics. They have participants that they realize, they maybe can't completely rely on social security.

They don't have a pension benefit. They don't need to be sold on why guaranteed income. It's really the specific type of solution and how it fits in within the other investment options on their platform, and/or as a QDIA. So, I'd say it really depends on, it varies plan sponsor to plan sponsor and even the specific plan.

So there again, there's no single product really, but the AllianceBernstein product, I think, is extremely attractive to many plan sponsors. 

[00:16:56] Jim: Andrew, as a follow up to what Christine just mentioned, in what ways does this build on or diverge from traditional Guaranteed Income products? 

[00:17:05] Andrew: I think we've touched on some of those concepts.

It's really the liquidity.

[00:17:09] Jim: Okay.

[00:17:09] Andrew: Being a very big one. It's the exposure, continued exposure to the markets. You're not handing over your assets to an insurance company in exchange for an income stream, and then really not seeing that personal balance sheet with that accumulated savings over 40 years.

You're seeing that still. You see your savings, you see it continuing to grow. You just know that, "Oh, if I live into my late eighties, nineties, I've got this backstop. I'm gonna be able to continue to spend and spoil the grandkids and be able to fund the retirement that I always envisioned."

That's really important. As participants, we want it all right? We want that growth. We want that protection. To touch on plan sponsors, right? They're looking for— make this easy for me. We're not looking to take on a whole new department and hire a bunch of people to be able to support the solution.

Bring it to me in an easy way. Package it up. Fiduciary risks is definitely a concern. It's one that we're so happy about the DOL advisory opinion that we received on our solution because it really validates the design of the solution. It gives plan sponsors a clear and descriptive path that they can use to go forward with adopting a Lifetime Income strategy.

[00:18:21] Jim: Fantastic. 

So, as we wrap up this segment, Andrew, obviously many insurers on this platform, and what makes this so attractive? What is so unique? Perhaps you can share that. 

[00:18:33] Andrew: Sure. One of the things is AllianceBernstein is doing all the heavy lifting. I kid, but the way the platform works is the insurers are able to provide market-based rates, given current conditions.

So, given interest rates in markets today, given volatility that we're seeing, and then given specifics about the plan, and what's good for the insurers about that program is it really allows them to manage their risk and their capacity and their appetite. It's also good for participants, right? We are buying in through this solution over a period of 10 to 15 years.

So, we're conducting this auction process about 60 times for the average participant. Means they're gonna get a really smooth ride. There's no timing risk that they're just buying in at a sort of poor market environment for these types of solutions. And it's gonna add up at the end of the day to a benefit that's just much more consistent.

[00:19:27] Jim: Andrew, that's fantastic. Brian, do you have anything to share?

[00:19:29] Brian: Sure. From my perspective, I guess I'll just try to speak simplistically because that's how I understand this. The benefit that I had just heard Andrew articulate is really just simply that as over time, I'm not taking that risk of, "All of a sudden it's my time,

I'm 65 and I need to retire, and the market's horrible, and my insurance rate that was gonna be offered to me in this guarantee is all of a sudden drastically different if I would've accumulated over time and taken advantage of just normal market cycles." So, that's what I really enjoy about, again, the platform. The uniqueness of it is really special.

[00:20:02] Jim: Absolutely. Christine? 

[00:20:04] Christine: First, as Andrew mentioned, I think we do love the fact that AllianceBernstein has made it easy for the insurers. So, that is absolutely one pro from an insurer's perspective. And the other: pricing strategy. The fact that we can, it's really, as

Brian alluded to, it's mutually beneficial between the insurer and the end plan participant that we can reflect changes in pricing due to the changing economic environment. But, from the participant's perspective, they get the benefit of those changes throughout time that essentially smooths their end result. The other, I think, again, from the plan sponsor and plan participant perspective, is, as you touched on it, Jim, the fact that it is a multi- insurer solution and that there is this competitive bidding process and it's not just tied to one single insurer. It is a, it's a long-term product. So I think that is definitely a strength of the product.

[00:20:55] Jim: So, let's pivot a little bit and talk about impact and adoption. We've talked about the collaboration. And what I'd love to do is talk about not only how this collaboration aligns with the needs in the market, but let's explore how it's being received and then also the impact it's starting to have.

Perhaps Andrew, you can start with this one. 

[00:21:16] Andrew: Yeah, it's been received really well. So, most of the plans that have adopted have wanted to manage their workforce more effectively, right? Help people who are near retirement age have the confidence and have the visualization of their income stream in retirement.

And without a guarantee buildup over time, they're not able to see that. So, people are retiring closer to when they intended. And then that's opening up new roles for people in the middle career and younger 

career as well.

[00:21:46] Brian: Additionally, I don't think you would actually see plan sponsors adding this product if they didn't find success with it in the environment of which the AllianceBernstein's platform has been seeing

adoption. The adoption that they have in their platform is really qualified default investment alternative, which means plan sponsors using this as an investment vehicle for individuals that don't make an investment election. So, they're using it as a solution that provides a safe harbor. That means they have conviction

in this product and that solution. So I see that as success. That's how I would measure success. 

[00:22:18] Andrew: The vast majority of participants in the plan are enrolling or being enrolled into the solution, and they're staying in the solution. Those are two really important metrics, Brian, to see that it's having an impact.

The performance that it's been able to generate over the past 13 years is also a really strong point. People are getting better returns with the guarantees than they would've had in the Target-date Funds that their plan offered prior to the rollout of the Lifetime Income strategy. 

[00:22:48] Jim: Obviously value, right?

People are, they see the significant value and those metrics are so important. 

Brian, do you have anything to share? 

[00:22:55] Brian: Sure. Sometimes I feel like an overlooked item in value that gets, might get missed sometimes, is that human beings have the ability to learn to live within a budget. If you illustrate a budget to them, one of the things that you can get with a solution that provides a guaranteed lifetime income is a known value to live within.

I feel that, as an individual with aging parents that are in retirement, and myself soon approaching that stage, I am learning that the one gap that they had in front of them is they didn't really know how to live within their means because they didn't— all they had was this lump sum value, and they didn't know how to budget around that lump sum value.

This strategy gives individuals that opportunity to understand what does their lump sum value in their Defined Contribution plan look like. It would— they would have the assurances of knowing that it's guaranteed and they know the amount that they could live with from a monthly perspective. So, those are features that, again, provide value to an individual.

And I really think that will start to change the behavior in this industry as people really start to buy into that. 

[00:23:54] Andrew: And one thing that we've started to really observe and analyze as we've collected data over the last 13 years for 140,000 participants is starting to look at what people engage with the tools to better understand this connection between savings and income, and then what actions do they take?

If there's an underlying thing that we're trying to accomplish as an industry, it's to get people to save more in their Defined Contribution plans. When they see how far or short their savings goes in converting to income, we're seeing that they're, it's prompting people to save more. People have increased their savings rates by 40% more than people who have not engaged.

So, we're driving that result that plan sponsors are ultimately looking for just by having the guarantee available and the tools for people to understand it. 

[00:24:46] Jim: Andrew, that's great. And I'd love to ask if you have any unique, client success stories, any nuggets that you can share on the show today, that really demonstrate this great feedback that you've discussed on the show?

[00:24:58] Andrew: We do. So one is for our public client, State Universities Retirement System of Illinois, they implemented with us in 2020. Shortly after launch, we did a case study on how did the implementation go, how many people stuck into the, stayed with the program. What was their experience like? Were they engaging with the tools?

How many people started using the income right away? They have a really good relationship between their benefits team and the individuals retiring. Really high adoption. People are extremely happy with it. 

[00:25:29] Jim: Andrew, great. Thanks for sharing those stories, and it's always so interesting to hear that feedback, and it really confirms the great work and obviously, through over a decade of focus on these solutions, it confirms the success there in market.

[00:25:43] Andrew: Yeah, no, we're really happy about it. 

[00:25:44] Jim: What I'd love to do is talk a little bit about the future and trends. Andrew, a few times during the show, you've mentioned the DOL opinion letter. Christine, you've referenced it as well. What I'd love to be able to do is take an opportunity to explain why that Department of Labor opinion letter is important and how it impacts the work currently underway.

Can you share a little bit about that? 

[00:26:08] Andrew: Absolutely. Plan sponsors like certainty. They like things black and white. They don't want to have to interpret the lack of explicit direction from the regulatory bodies about something's validity by having their in-house counsel have to make a decision.

And so that's where we were prior to the release of that advisory opinion. We believed, and our clients believed, that our solution is completely QDIA compliant, especially around the liquidity component because it is fully liquid at all times, which is typically the provision that income solutions fail on, right?

Ours did not have that issue. However, the DOL advisory opinion laid it out in black and white saying, as long as this operates the way that you're describing it operates, this is still a QDIA safe harbor protected solution, so that's why it was such a big deal. It just completely validates the design and what we've been saying since the inception of the product,

so that plan sponsors need not fear any regulatory issues when it comes to adopting the solution. 

[00:27:12] Jim: Yeah, great, Andrew, and obviously an important development. Do you have any thoughts on that, Brian? 

[00:27:19] Brian: I think the elephant in the room is really the litigation. It's been prevalent within the Defined Contribution space, and plan

sponsors and advisors are seeking comfort in solutions that keep them out of litigation, and that's what you find a value in a DOL opinion letter that AllianceBernstein had received. That's the value that this is gonna trigger in my opinion. 

[00:27:40] Andrew: We're gonna get to the point where participants expect their 401k plan or DC plan to have an income solution.

And if they don't have one, they're gonna be really loud about getting one. 

[00:27:53] Christine: Yeah, at the end of the day, these types of solutions, they address longevity risk that virtually every participant will face in retirement, but also other risks like sequence of returns risk, where if the market drops right before you retire, right before you start taking withdrawals, that could have a very, lasting impact on your overall retirement portfolio.

[00:28:15] Jim: Group, I just want to thank you so much. This has been a phenomenal conversation. We've touched on so many unique topics, and I hope our audience has enjoyed this journey as much as I have. What I'd love to do before we actually wrap up is ask each of you: Is there a takeaway you hope our audience can bring from the conversation today?

Andrew, let's start with you. 

[00:28:38] Andrew: Guess what? We're not in the early innings. We've had a solution for 13 years. It's out there. It's being used. It's evolving. One of the most important things we did recently is move away from only the Lifetime Income Strategy solution where it had to be fully integrated with a target-date fund that AB manages

to the secure income portfolio where it can be used with any plan, with any provider. That flexibility is gonna really open doors to a lot more participants getting the benefits that they deserve. 

[00:29:10] Jim: Andrew, thank you. Brian, your thoughts? 

[00:29:12] Brian: Sure. I would really just wanna close with: Have confidence and courage. As a plan sponsor or advisor,

take the time to really invest in educating yourself on guaranteed income products. These are solutions that can provide value, and I think the further you research them, you will find that it is not just a talking point. There is value in it, and it really should be something you explore for your plan.

[00:29:32] Jim: Brian, thank you, Christine. 

[00:29:34] Christine: I would just echo everything Brian said. If you're a plan participant, please talk to your employer and your benefits team. There may already be a solution in your plan that is like one of these Guaranteed Income Solutions. If you're a plan sponsor, advisor, record keeper, whomever within the DC industry, please reach out to someone at Pacific Life or AllianceBernstein about the solutions we offer in market, and in particular, the solution we have together.

[00:29:58] Jim: Fantastic. Everybody, I wanna thank you so much, Andrew, Christine, Brian, for being with us here on today's show. We'd love to have you back.

[00:30:06] Brian: Thank you.

[00:30:07] Andrew: Sounds great. Thanks.

[00:30:08] Christine: Thanks.

[00:30:08] Jim: Absolutely. And to our audience, I want to take a moment to thank you for joining us on today's episode of The Wave Strength.

And also thank our production team behind the scenes for making this possible. I wanna encourage you to head over to YouTube, Spotify, and Audible, and hit like and subscribe so that you can stay current with new content as it becomes available. We'll see you next time everyone.

[00:30:34] Voiceover: This has been another episode of The Wave Strength, presented by Pacific Life. Don't forget to catch us on YouTube, and make sure to subscribe. Although this podcast is presented by Pacific Life, the opinions and views expressed are those of the hosts and participants, and do not necessarily reflect Pacific Life's views on any of the topics discussed. Unless otherwise noted,

Pacific Life is unaffiliated with any other individual or company mentioned. Pacific Life is a product provider. It is not a fiduciary, and therefore does not give advice or make recommendations regarding insurance or investment products. Pacific Life, its affiliates, its distributors, and respective representatives,

do not provide any employer-sponsored qualified plan, administrative services, or impartial advice about investments, and do not act in a fiduciary capacity for any plan. Pacific Life refers to Pacific Life Insurance Company and its subsidiary Pacific Life and Annuity Company. Insurance products can be issued in all states except New York by Pacific Life Insurance Company and in all states by Pacific Life and Annuity Company.

Product availability and features may vary by state. Each insurance company is solely responsible for the financial obligations accruing under the products at issues. This podcast was recorded on October 21st, 2025.

[00:31:57] Jim: Thanks for joining us on today's show. We'd love to hear from you. Join the conversation below, and leave a comment on your thoughts on what the industry can do better for participants as it pertains to Lifetime Income Solutions. And if you'd like more interesting content, click one of these links over here.