Brian: Five years of incredible growth, the days go slow, but the years go fast. Learning to be comfortable being uncomfortable, you know, if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there and the makeup of a successful team. It's, bringing the team together and the diverse perspectives that each of us bring.

Jim: All this and more on today's episode of The Wave Strength.

TWS: Welcome to The Wave Strength, innovative solutions for a secure retirement. Presented by Pacific Life.

Jim: Hello everyone. And welcome to another exciting episode of The Wave Strength podcast series. I'm your host, Jim Breen, head of marketing with Pacific Life's Institutional team. We're excited to be here in the studio today with our very own Brian Woolfolk.

Jim: Brian, thank you so much for joining us in the studio. We have a lot to talk about and it's a, an amazing opportunity for us to lean into and discuss, these fantastic first five years of the Institutional team. So, Brian, thank you for joining us.

Brian: Yeah, first of all, Jim, thanks for having me back, and I really love what you've done with the studio here over the five years of our journey.

Brian: There's been a progression. I will say for a little behind the scenes information here, this has come a long way from where we started. You'd never know this. You'd never know this is in the lower level of the Pacific Life Building in Newport Beach.

Jim: Thank you. Yeah, we, really, this is one of, you know, what you're watching right now is really one of the things that we're going to talk about in terms of what Institutional has done to innovate the space and as you talked about, we started small steps, baby steps, and kudos to the team that has been able to build this out and get us to where we are with just this one element, this one small sliver, but as we lean into deeper Brian, you know maybe maybe you could talk a little bit about where your mind is now, looking back at Brian Woolfolk five years ago, when you were asked, "Brian, is this something that you would like to do?"

Brian: So the answer was yes. The answer was yes. I absolutely was intrigued and excited about the opportunity of starting up our Institutional Division. The reasons for that, we've talked about that in previous podcasts. We have uniquely growing markets. We have the opportunity to be a leader in the space and really lean on the, the financial strength and brand of the organization.

Brian: But I will say, you know, kind of looking back, I mean, I'm going to butcher probably a lot of well known phrases today, but the days go slow, but the years go fast. So being able to say, you know, as, as we sit here today, we are more than five years in, you know, to our journey is just absolutely mind blowing to me.

Brian: And then, you look back and you see everything that the team has been able to accomplish in that period of time is just a significant, significant step not only for us as a division, but for Pacific Life as a whole.

Jim: And we've had a lot of curve balls, Brian started with a small team, about 20 people.

Jim: On the heels of a pandemic, having to build a team, all these things, but in those five years, Brian, can you maybe share something that has surprised you the most? Something that you go, I did not expect that.

Brian: Yeah, certainly whether it's a surprise, but just how the team really kind of bonded together over that period of time. I mean, our goals were big, ginormous is another word, huge in terms of being able what we were being asked to accomplish, but I think being very clear and specific about what we were trying to accomplish at that period of time, you know, whether it should or should not be a surprise today, I think that allowed it to not be a surprise that we were able to meet our goals over that period of time.

Brian: Because, you know, if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. So we had that clear roadmap of what we were trying to achieve. No idea how we were going to do it when there was 20 people, but being able to get together as a group and really be able to solve that, and really lean on each other and the expertise that each of us have and that we bring to the table, I think is really the success story there.

Jim: Well, you're actually leading into the, the next question I wanted to ask you and, I'm going to go ahead and, do something a little weird and answer the question for you. But the question that I wanted to ask was, you know, what do you think has been the most significant factor in that success?

Jim: You kind of touched on it a little bit. It's somebody that has been here not quite since day one. But early on, it's that communication, in my opinion, right, that ability for this team to work so well together, to communicate, to know what the roles and responsibilities are, but Brian, maybe not to take the words out of your mouth, but what would you say that significant factor of success is?

Brian: Yeah, I think you said it. It's, the team. It's bringing the team together and the diverse perspectives that each of us bring. I know what my strengths are. I know what your strengths are. The team really compliments each other across the board. I mean, every leader says they have the best team. I really do. Okay. So as we look at, you know, just the abilities and the skills and everything that we're able to bring together, that the secret sauce. And that's what makes us successful.

Jim: And it permeates throughout the entire Institutional team. You know, we see those characteristics, I think pop up across the various teams, which is amazing.

Jim: Well, Brian, you mentioned the word people a moment ago, team, and, you know, Pacific Life, nearly 160 year old company has been known for the way it takes care of its people. It cultivates its talent, if you will. Let's dive into that a little bit. This, kind of people-first culture Pacific Life has.

Jim: And you know, we feel that our people are our greatest asset. Talk a little bit about that as you've built out your teams through these last five years, how has that played into the build?

Brian: Yeah, it's a good question, Jim. And I think you're right in terms of people is one of the core values of Pacific Life.

Brian: And it really is at the front and center of what we are both as a division, but also as an organization, as we look to build and about development and about providing people opportunities. One of the things I'm most proud of that we've been able to do in our first five years here is we, I can't still, I keep saying it because we were sitting here five years from the time from the time we started.

Brian: It's absolutely crazy. But the fact that we've been able to be an exporter of talent, to the organization. So we have people that we've been able to rotate out of our business into Investments, into our Asset Liability Management, into Finance, just across the board into our Consumer Markets Division, to be able to bring that expertise and get different experiences.

Brian: What I want is people who want my job. I want people who want your job. I want people who want other senior leader's jobs across our organization. And how do we do that? We do that through diverse experiences. We bring that through being able to see all different areas of the company so that you have that expertise that when the time comes that there's opportunities and the individuals and their skills match up to that.

Brian: So, you know, I think Pacific Life is well known for doing the right thing for our customers, for our people, and ultimately our communities. And it all starts with the people that that work in our organization.

Jim: You know, you and I were at an event the other night, and a lot of Pacific Life folks there, and you look over the sea of people, and to your point, They started with Institutional, they were with Institutional, now they're in Investments, or now they're with Corporate.

Jim: But that fantastic opportunity for us to be able to, yes, build the talent, and then those folks bring their skill sets to other areas of the enterprise. It's pretty amazing, which, you know, it's kind of this continual development of talent, if you will. Yeah,

Brian: Absolutely, couldn't have said it better myself.

Jim: Well, thank you. So one of the things that we, Brian, as a division had to really focus on day one was innovation. How can we show up differently? Maybe we could talk a little bit about this, desire to foster, you mentioned diverse perspectives, or what is it that we feel kind of drives that innovation within Institutional?

Brian: Yeah, I think it's, it's really comes down, I'm going to use another one of our core values, which is courage. And inside of being able to have the robust debate and really get to the heart of the issues, it's about trying new things. Not everything is going to work. Shocker.

Jim: Yeah.

Brian: You know, not, not every idea, well, all ideas are great.

Brian: Right. But not all of them work. And so being able to try new and different stuff within, within the frameworks that are available to us really allows us to innovate, to adapt, to do things quickly to have a MVP or a minimal viable product mindset to be able to do and iterate and ultimately get to a place where we, we've done something that's new and different that hasn't been seen before.

Jim: It's one thing to say that, but to implement it, I mean, Brian, do you think that there needs to be this, this culture of people need to feel comfortable taking those maybe calculated risks?

Brian: Yeah. And I would even say being comfortable, being uncomfortable. Because when you're doing new stuff, like it's never been done before.

Brian: We, need to try and hey, we need to learn and what is this and there's implications, but every time you do something, you learn. And whether the outcome is good or the outcome is not so good, I don't want to say bad but not so good, but any time you're able to take that, your learnings, and be able to apply that to the next time.

Brian: I, look at, you know, even my, my in laws spent their entire careers at 3M. One of their most successful products, the Post-it-Note, is based on an adhesive that was a failure in the other part of the organization. So being able to bring that together and apply that to our business as well.

Jim: So, as we talk about innovation, Brian Let's switch the mindset a little bit to partnerships and collaborations because, you know, when that team is striving for innovation, being comfortable, being uncomfortable, it unlocks these opportunities for us to show up differently. You know, the word think or the phrase think outside the box is used all the time.

Brian: Sure, we can double click on that if you'd like.

Jim: Yeah, it's something that is there's a lot of truth to that. So how do you think that this, this innovative mindset has factored into these partnerships and collaborations?

Brian: Yeah, I think when I think partnership and I think collaboration, the one thing it comes down to, again, back to the people aspect, is relationships.

Brian: And that's relationships internally, that's relationships externally, that's relationships, when I say externally, I mean external to the organization, but that's external to our small team as well. To be able to work across the organization to have success, in our industry, it all comes back to, it is a relationship business at the end of the day, it always has been and always will be.

Brian: We, use lots of tools and technology that help deliver those solutions, but ultimately at the end of the day, it comes down to the personal relationship.

Jim: Those relationships are so important. And even as you mentioned, working with our internal partners, right, to help show up in unique ways to work across the aisle, to make sure that we can have the significant impact that we're looking for.

Brian: And I'll just even give you an example. Please, Jim. I had a cross collaboration opportunity because I was in the cafeteria, picking up my lunch and you know, an individual who works in another area that kind of said, "Hey, I got a question for you. Have you ever thought about, or what do you think about," And so from that, we were able to take that and really move that forward into an initiative that kind of benefits both of our areas.

Jim: So Brian, you talk a little bit about working with other stakeholders within our enterprise. I know there's a lot going on right now and many projects, perhaps you can highlight a specific project.

Brian: Yeah. I mean, I, there, there's certainly too many to list here on the pod, but the one that really comes to mind is really what we call our add up project, which was really our administrative system conversion, which was, if you're not in the insurance industry, there's a reason that this doesn't get done very often. It's because it's a significant undertaking. It's a significant lift. We were able to transition from our prior system to our new system over the five years we started day one, Hey, this is something we need to do.

Brian: That was completed in the first quarter of this year, which was just a tremendous milestone. First quarter of 2024. To be able to really bring that together, from that standpoint, we were able to convert over 10 million records, which included 300, 000 lives over 1200 plans and really be able to be on a modern, scalable platform that's going to help support our growth business for our pension risk transfer and defined contribution lifetime income as we move forward.

Jim: Amazing.

Brian: Yeah, it blows me away. I mean, and the team, a lot of late nights, a lot of early mornings, but a significant, significant milestone.

Jim: Communication, trust, innovation. Yeah, key themes here is we talk about the you know, the employees and the teams. But let's talk about how that benefits the customer a little bit, Brian.

Jim: You know, I think you just touched on it a little bit here, but that, you know, return on investment when we're investing in those employees, right, those team members, they're then providing those unique opportunities, for the end user, for our clients and customers.

Brian: Yeah, and I mentioned it earlier. We're here and we're in business to do the right thing for our customers, our people, and our communities that we live in.

Brian: That is, it's in that order for a reason. We're here to serve our customers. We're a mutual insurance company. We are here for the benefit of our customers and that's a distinct advantage here for us and, you know. You mentioned 160 years, Pacific Life's been here for nearly 160 years. Strength, stability, brand, all the things that as we present ourselves into the market that are going to make us successful to ultimately make good on those promises over the next 160 years.

Jim: So we talk about the community, we talk about what has been, you know, nearly 160 years of you know, giving back to the communities in which we do business you know, having you know, also sustainability top of mind shifting gears a little bit here to our, our Global Institutional Investment Group or GIIG, as we call it, a lot of, of fantastic opportunities for us to show up, to innovate.

Jim: to provide unique solutions. Maybe we could talk a little bit about the, the commitment to sustainability as it pertains to our, our Global Institutional Investment Group or GIIG.

Brian: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think that group has done a tremendous job in the sustainability space. The fact with the, sustainability bond that they were able to issue in 2021, over $800 million, that's still the largest in the funding grant funding agreement, backed note space.

Jim: That's a big deal.

Brian: That's, it's a big deal. That's significant. Those the proceeds of that going to fund, you know, clean energy, affordable housing and, and similar type projects to be able to move that initiative forward. And the fact that the team worked again, relationships across the organization to bring that together in eight short weeks was a tremendous initiative, just overall a great success.

Jim: Yeah. And this, this GIIG group, Brian, it, it, it's actually, there's, there's more under the hood there. It's not just this, this unique area with Capital Markets and spread lending. A lot of other great opportunities within that team.

Brian: Yeah, certainly a well-rounded group. A, a strong group of individuals that bring a number of great solutions to the market that we're happy to serve.

Jim: Well, Brian, what I'd love to be able to do is. shift gears and talk about our Institutional Retirement Solutions Group and the great work currently underway on that team. They have a keen focus on both the defined benefit or pension risk transfer side of the house, really focusing on the retirement plans of today and also to, on the defined contribution side or defined contribution lifetime income, the retirement plans of tomorrow.

Jim: Perhaps you can share a little bit about what is going on, the great successes so far and an outlook for the future.

Brian: Yeah. I mean, ultimately at the end of the day, what the Institutional Retirement Solutions Group is doing is they're providing promises effectively lifetime income for our customers of the risk of living too long.

Brian: As an insurance company, that's at the end of the day, at the heart of what we do, we protect the risk of dying too soon and living too long. And so that's really what this group here is, is working towards.

Jim: Absolutely. You know, and we have that benefit again as, as a mutually held company to provide that unique strength, that unique stability to our clients and customers.

Brian: Yeah, we've talked about the 160 years nearly of Pacific Life. We've, we've been in the group annuity space since 1941. So not, not the full 160 years, but a significant period of time there. And that just shows our commitment and ability to stand out in the pension risk transfer market.

Jim: Yeah, many decades, many decades.

Jim: So let's talk a little more about the Institutional Retirement Solutions Group, IRSG. A wide range of unique solutions, but again, that innovation, right? That innovative mindset that the team brings to the table. Let's talk a little bit deeper about pension risk transfer and defined contribution lifetime income, Brian, and, and the growth that they have experienced and the opportunity looking ahead.

Brian: Yeah, it's a really exciting growth time particularly for, for these two product lines. As I mentioned, we have some uniquely growing markets just, across the board, we touched on the global Institutional investments piece there. But, you know, as we think about pension risk transfer and DCLI, defined contribution lifetime incoming, those markets are significant.

Brian: They're going to continue to grow. I think we touched on, the risk of living too long in insurance terms, we call that longevity risk, and if we're able to take that risk off the table. People as they go into retirement, there's really the two fears that they have: the first is healthcare and the rising cost of healthcare and will they have enough to pay the healthcare costs that are associated with that.

Brian: The other is running out of money. And when you run out of money or you have a fear of running out of money, one of two things is going to happen. You're either going to spend too much, which has implications, or you're going to spend too little and not be able to enjoy the fruits of your retirement and all the hard work that you've put in to date.

Brian: I would say as an industry, we probably haven't done a great job talking about the benefits of lifetime income. I think, significant strides have been made over the last several years with the Alliance for Lifetime Income and, and others being able to bring that forth.

Brian: People love their pension. They love Social Security, but when you call it an annuity, same thing, by the way, lifetime income for as long as you live, great concept, highly recommend it for everyone. Highly, highly. Happy to talk to you about those solutions as we as we drive forward. But, but you just think about that opportunity for us and that's really what's going to drive our success.

Jim: Brian, we talked a little bit about DCLI. Let's switch gears here and talk about pension risk transfer or PRT. Yeah, we've been in that area for nearly 80 years. However, we're seeing some significant growth, significant opportunity as we move ahead. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that.

Brian: Yeah, absolutely. We've had great success. In each of our five years, although I'm happy to highlight in 2024 that we've had our most successful year to date in terms of pension risk transfer sales. And that, again, we talked about people, it just goes back to the team and really bringing it together across the division, across the organization, across the company, really building our brand and the market to be able to drive that success forward, to bring us not only our highest sales year in total, but we had our highest case size ever.

Brian: Which goes hand in hand with the highest day ever. We won two cases on the same day, which was a significant event for us as an organization.

Jim: Huge success for the team. What a fantastic, fantastic story to tell. All right, so Brian, huge success there with the, the pension risk transfer side of the house.

Jim: Now this shift from defined benefit to defined contribution plans, let's talk a little bit about that and, and some of the opportunities that the industry is witnessing right now.

Brian: Yeah, I think the shift to define contribution plans, I don't want to say it largely went unnoticed over the last 40 years because it didn't get a whole lot of publicity, other than recently in 2019 with the passing of the SECURE Act and subsequently SECURE Act 2.0.

Brian: And we hope 3. 0 and 4. 0 to continue to encourage the ability to include an annuity inside of a 401k or defined contribution plan. There has been a major shift from defined benefit plans, so your pension plan, to your defined contribution or your 401k or similar type plan, that all that responsibility has now shifted to the individual.

Brian: So that's me and you. So now we need to determine how much we're going to contribute, how we're going to invest those dollars. And then what do we do with it at the end? Yeah. And obviously the pension is on its way out. There's still $3 Trillion worth of pension plans that are to be de risked over the next 20 or 30 years.

Brian: So, significant runway for our business. But for the individual, for me, I don't have a Pension plan. I don't know about you, Jim, but mm-hmm, I don't have a pension plan, so, you know, my retirement is really my responsibility in terms of how I save, how I allocate, and then ultimately how I take the income from that.

Brian: So just one of those exciting opportunities as we move forward to really bring a spotlight to providing that lifetime income and protecting your future. Being able to protect your future, being able to bring that forth to not outlive your money, to be able to spend the right amount so that you're not spending too little or you're not spending too much.

Jim: I think also, you know, as we look at ways in which we can help folks understand the need to protect your future, right, Brian, maybe you could share some of the, the ways in which this team, our IRSG team is showing up the way in which we're looking at you know, the partnership landscape, for example.

Brian: Yeah, we're a small but mighty team and we always will be. We, you mentioned we started out with with 20 individuals back in the day and, and we're still, you know, plus or minus with our enterprise partners around 150 people. So we need to be able to show up larger than, than we are.

Brian: And we do that through tools. We do that through technology. But again, we're going back to the relationships. We do that through our partnerships. And so for us, it's really about being with the right partners, with the right products at the right time, to be able to bring the energy and the passion that the team does. Ultimately to have success in the defined contribution space, it's going to take a little co- op petition with our competitors as we build this market, because it, frankly, it doesn't really exist at the moment.

Brian: It's going to be very different five years from now. 10 years from now, 20 years from now, this is going to be a major part of not only our business, but the insurance industry as a whole.

Jim: Well, it'll be very interesting, Brian to sit down with you at the 20-years-in podcast to learn more about that.

Brian: Looking forward to it, Jim. Thank you.

Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Excited.

Brian: Excited about that one.

Jim: So Brian, as we begin to wrap up this episode. You know, something that our Institutional Retirement Solutions Group is keenly focused on is, you know, a lot of the regulatory bodies that are beginning to recognize that the importance of the solutions and how we can show up in a way that will provide the a clean runway, if you will, maybe you talk a little bit about the great work that our team is doing to make sure that we're showing up in the right way.

Brian: Yeah, we're, we're absolutely plugged in to the legislative landscape and spending a lot of time in Washington. With the key individuals that we need to be talking to there on Capitol Hill just to, to make sure that lifetime income is important and seen and really brought to the forefront.

Brian: I mentioned the SECURE Act. I mentioned SECURE Act 2. 0. Those are bipartisan bills. There's not a whole lot anymore that gets agreed on in Washington. The SECURE Act and really being able to provide a lifetime income and the other things that it brings forth is really one of those things.

Brian: So we think that that is a, a critical investment for us across the board.

Jim: Well, Brian, again, thanks for sitting down. I know there is a lot going on and really grateful that you'd share time with us on the podcast today, but I'd love to ask you just one more question. So. Just, just one question. Just one, Just one. But, if you can go back and give yourself one piece of advice at the start of this journey, what would it be?

Brian: Oh, it'd be more than one piece of advice, but I think it would, I think it would start with patience. Rome wasn't built in a day. The Institutional business was not built in a day but ultimately having the patience to build and to know you're going to make the mistakes. I had a mentor as I was coming into this role advise me a couple of different things.

Brian: And this individual was right, number one: the highs are not as high as you think they're going to be, and the lows are not as low and really taking that to heart, having patience with the build, knowing that everything's not going to be perfect on day one, that everything is not going to be executed with military precision all the time.

Brian: That's the goal, right? We want to, have everything go perfect every single time. It doesn't. Shocker. But being able to take that and learn and then iterate and do after action reviews and really become a better business as we move forward.

Jim: That's fantastic advice. Fantastic advice.

Jim: So as we end here, Brian again, congratulations on a very successful five years to you and the team. Such, such great progress. And as we look into the future, such great opportunity. So we're very excited about the next five years as we look down the road.

Brian: Yes, it is exciting Jim, I know I use that word a lot and it's because that's, that's actually how I feel.

Brian: I know you know, it's not me, it's the team. Yes. Yes. And that's, I want to make sure that's completely clear. Now I'm a member of the team, so I'm a part of it. I think it's the great poet Post Malone once said, "Hey, I had some help." And so that's the way that I view this, you know, the ability to be on The Wave Strength podcast with you and the team behind the scenes here is, has just been a thrill for me.

Brian: I'm glad that you had me back with some of the high powered guests that you've been able to have on over the years. So I just appreciate you and I appreciate everybody that's behind the curtain over here to my right.

Jim: Absolutely. And Brian, thank you so much. We appreciate that. And the leadership also to the team behind the scenes.

Jim: Great job once again. And to our audience, I want to thank you for taking time out of your day to join us on The Wave Strength podcast. And I want to encourage you to head over to YouTube, Spotify, Audible and LinkedIn and search The Wave Strength and like and subscribe so that you can stay current with new content as it becomes available. We'll see you next time everyone.

TWS: This has been another episode of The Wave Strength presented by Pacific Life. Don't forget to catch us on YouTube and make sure to subscribe. Although this podcast is presented by Pacific Life, the opinions and views expressed are those of the hosts and participants, and do not necessarily reflect Pacific Life's views on any of the topics discussed unless otherwise noted.

TWS: Pacific Life is unaffiliated with any other individual or company mentioned. Pacific Life is a product provider. It is not a fiduciary and therefore does not give advice or make recommendations regarding insurance or investment products. Pacific Life, its affiliates, its distributors, and respective representatives do not provide any employer sponsored qualified plan administrative services or impartial advice about investments and do not act in a fiduciary capacity for any plan.

TWS: Pacific Life refers to Pacific Life Insurance Company and its subsidiary, Pacific Life & Annuity Company. Insurance products can be issued in all states except New York by Pacific Life Insurance Company and in all states by Pacific Life & Annuity Company. Product availability and features may vary by state.

TWS: Each insurance company is solely responsible for the financial obligations accruing under the products it issues. This podcast was recorded on December 10th, 2024.

Jim: Thanks for joining us on today's show. We'd love to hear from you join the conversation below and leave a comment on your thoughts on what the industry can do better for participants as it pertains to lifetime income solutions. And if you'd like more interesting content, click one of these links over here.